Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 15: A feminist career 鈥� with Madeleine Shaw
Speakers: Melissa Roach, Maria Cecilia Saba, Jamie-Leigh Gonzales, Madeleine Shaw
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Melissa Roach 0:06
You鈥檙e listening to Below the Radar, a knowledge mobilization project recorded out of 312 Main. This podcast is produced by SFU鈥檚 Vancity Office of Community Engagement.
Maria Cecilia Saba 0:17
Below the Radar brings forward ideas to encourage meaningful exchanges across communities.
Jamie-Leigh Gonzales 0:21
Each episode we interview guests on topics ranging from environmental and social justice, arts, culture, community building, and urban issues. This podcast is recorded on the unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples.
[theme music]
Maria Cecilia Saba 0:43
Hello, this is Maria Cecilia Saba and today鈥檚 episode features myself and Melissa Roach in conversation with . Known for her revolutionary way of normalizing menstruation, Madeleine discusses everything from her early days co-founding Lunapads to her newest creative projects, including and , a soon-to-launch, work-friendly family space.
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Melissa Roach 1:09
So, thank you for coming! Madeleine, you鈥檙e a social entrepreneur and the founder of 鈥� and I don鈥檛 have to tell you this, [laughs] you know 鈥� a co-founder of G Day, so I want to ask you about those exciting projects. When you and I met in the hall earlier, we were talking about the kind of moment we鈥檙e in, that feels to me like the 鈥榩eriod revolution.鈥� A lot of things are happening right now, and it鈥檚 really exciting. And I kind of look at Lunapads as like one of the OG players in that. So, I was hoping you could share with us how that started and how you鈥檙e feeling about it now.
Madeleine Shaw 1:48
Totally, thank you. Yeah, actually to clarify one thing, I鈥檓 a co-founder of Lunapads along with my business partner , who today is the CEO of Lunapads. For anyone who doesn鈥檛 know this, I actually retired from my position at Lunapads as Creative Director at the end of 2017, and I鈥檝e since moved on to a couple of new projects. But I鈥檓 still very much in love with that company, and all the people, and everything it is and am involved in some specific ways even now. Just so people know that.
Madeleine Shaw 2:21
And, thanks for saying the OG thing [laughs] as a compliment. Yeah, I mean, I started making and experimenting with reusable products in the early 鈥�90s in response to just problems I was having using them, honestly. I was getting rashes and infections and they were just uncomfortable. And I hated how wasteful they were, because my period isn鈥檛 really a big deal anyways, and so I was using all of these products that were making me kind of feel gross and throwing them away. And was like, 鈥渢his is just so absurd,鈥� and I guess by that point I was already pretty woken up as a feminist, but I had never put my feminist lens on the issue of menstrual products 鈥� or what were then known as 鈥渇eminine hygiene鈥� products, which is one of my least favourite choices of names.
Madeleine Shaw 3:07
A few things actually happened at the same time. I stopped using birth control, hormonal birth control, around the same time. I was in my mid-twenties and the whole connection with my body really shifted. So when I started using reusables, doing this totally taboo thing of actually touching my menses and washing my pads and underwear and whatever. In a real spirit of curiosity, like, 鈥渨hat is this like?鈥� Back then, it was 25 years ago, it wasn鈥檛 really all that long ago, I knew what I was doing was kind of revolutionary. It was sort of taboo. It was really kind of like, 鈥測ou don鈥檛 touch your period, are you kidding me?鈥� This is why we use [disposable] products, so you don鈥檛 have to do that. And just, really unpacking how the language of the products and what is in the products 鈥� and when I say 鈥渢he products,鈥� I mean mainstream disposables. You know, the Always, the Tampax and so on, of this world. Unpacking how disrespectful they are around the language of something being sanitary or hygienic, of course, implies that what you鈥檙e doing or what you鈥檝e got going on in your body is unsanitary and unhygienic. So, kind of insulting, and the volume of the waste problem, and stuff.
Madeleine Shaw 4:20
More than anything, what changed for me was that I got that. My left brain got all of the data on that, but when I actually started the practice of washing pads and period underwear 鈥� which I was making in 1993, by the way, it鈥檚 not a new thing 鈥� it just shifted my relationship with my body somehow. I just opened me up. Like, this actually matters. Having your period matters, and being with it in a gentle, kind, respectful way sends a whole other message to your body than using the disposables. And that鈥檚 kind of hard to explain to people, but I sort of had almost this spiritual moment of going 鈥淥h my god, this really is connected to the larger natural cycles,鈥� like the lunar cycle and the seasons, and even a day. This natural rhythm of life. If you have a menstrual cycle, you are connected to that in this really really deep, primal, amazing, mysterious, profound way. And I didn鈥檛 get that until I stopped using disposables, started using reusables, and it just gave me this really profound shift in consciousness. That was at the point that I decided to commercialize the products, because I want people who menstruate to be able to experience this, if they and if they want to.
Melissa Roach 5:39
Yeah, and as a young woman today, we totally stand on the shoulders of you and the women who have worked to make all those things fairly accessible. Like, now you can go online and buy your reusable pads and your underwear.
Madeleine Shaw 5:51
Oh, can you ever!
Melissa Roach 5:55
So, thank you for that.
Madeleine Shaw 5:56
Of course, yeah. And in terms of the current climate, I look to people like , you know, who coined the whole 鈥榤enstrual equity鈥� terminology down in the States and, you know, getting tampon tax, so called, you know just all of this state taxes that are imposed on menstrual products taken off, state after state after state, and really bringing this issue to the public attention in a really, really wonderful way. And there have been some really great new innovators and marketers, and the product space that have elevated the conversation there, and now of course we鈥檝e got Academy Awards basically being awarded to menstruation in general. As far as I鈥檓 concerned, if you looked at my Facebook feed the morning after 鈥� oh my god [laughs] 鈥� And so yeah, the time has come for this conversation to be had, and I鈥檓 really happy just to have been someone who was part of getting it to where it is now, but in terms of my daily practice, it鈥檚 like, I will always love that issue and I care about it, but I鈥檝e also kind of moved on in recent years to start thinking about other things and just kind of...it鈥檚 kind of hard to explain. For me, it鈥檚 like entrepreneurship is an active creativity. So it鈥檚 like, if you鈥檙e an artist, you'd want to paint more than one painting, right, or if you鈥檙e a filmmaker you鈥檇 want to make more than one film. So in my case I just kinda kept having these big creative downloads, is what I call them, in terms of creating new enterprises and stuff, and so I鈥檝e moved on to work on that.
Melissa Roach 7:30
Yeah, G-Day is one example, which is such a huge, big idea that looks like so much fun. I was watching videos of kids dancing around and smiling and laughing and I got some, like, retroactive jealousy. Liike, I wish 10-year-old Melissa could鈥檝e been there.
Madeleine Shaw 7:48
Oh totally, yeah.
Maria Cecilia Saba 7:51
And I wanted to ask you, I know you鈥檝e spoken before about, a little bit, like how you were inspired to create G-Day, but I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the story? I believe there鈥檚 a red tent involved, as well in the inception?
Madeleine Shaw 8:05
There is a red tent involved in the story. So G-Day, for listeners who are not familiar with it, is a series of day-long events that, to date, have occurred in 6 cities in Canada 10 times since 2014. And we gather 鈥� it鈥檚 for tween girls, so female-identified youth between the ages of 10 and 12 and their parents or other adult-caregivers in their lives, and so it doesn鈥檛 need to be a biological parent, it could be a step-parent, it could be a grandparent or a foster parent or a social worker, a teacher, anyways 鈥� the idea is that we, it鈥檚 a right of passage. So in the same way that we have weddings and funerals and baby showers, when we socially take the time as groups to acknowledge moments of social transition that are really significant in people鈥檚 lives. So what we鈥檙e doing in the case of G-Day is acknowledging the transition between childhood and adolescence, which is why we isolate the sort of aged 10 to 12. So they鈥檙e not really children anymore, but they鈥檙e not really teenagers yet, either, so they鈥檙e in this funny 鈥榯ween world which, actually, is a very, very rich time in life where there鈥檚 a ton of transformation happening or about to happen.
Madeleine Shaw 9:17
And so G-Day is there to provide a community-based container of support for them that is basically you walk into a room with 200, 250 people who are there just to tell you that you matter, and it even still now makes me a bit emotional thinking about it. But it all started for me in 20- 鈥� I started thinking about it in 2013 鈥� and I was invited to do a Pecha Kucha night presentation here in Vancouver. But the question they asked me 鈥� and normally I talk about, at that point, was all about Lunapads, right 鈥� and the question I was asked was 鈥淗ow would I change a city if I could?鈥� And...I just didn鈥檛 quite know what to say. But then I thought about it and actually a memory came back to me from being that 10, 11, 12, age. I鈥檇 read a book called 鈥� the classic book. And, anyways, I just loved that book so much when I was a kid. It meant so much to me. It鈥檚 a story about a girl in the eastern United States, sort of midwestern United States, and her experience of 鈥� it鈥檚 kind of, it鈥檚 about her spirituality but it鈥檚 also about puberty and her body changing and how she anticipated that鈥�
Melissa Roach 10:25
And the devices she has to use! [laughs]
Madeleine Shaw 10:29
Yeah, absolutely! And the little clubs with her friends and there鈥檚 so many things about it that were just so special. And I remember at the time feeling very much a sense of empathy with her and her friends because they so anticipated, like, this notion for them, because that was their gender identity, as it was for me, this notion of becoming a woman, was this really amazing thing, and they were so excited about it and so curious about it. And I totally felt that way too, and it was like 鈥淗ow am I gonna 鈥� how is this transformation gonna happen to me?鈥� Like I can鈥檛 even imagine it. And even though I had all the data from a biological, you know puberty, la la la details, like I knew what was gonna happen, but it was more a feeling of magic and specialness that I was really craving, and I wasn鈥檛 part of any cultural tradition. LIke in the Jewish tradition, they have a , and they, you know, there鈥檚 various other cultures around the world that celebrate this transition or menarche and in my case there just was nothing. And so, the dream of it 鈥� like the craving of it 鈥� went away because it didn鈥檛 happen. But then I came back 鈥� weirdly, when I was asked to speak about this way that I would change a city 鈥� and I had this, I read t by , Maria that you mentioned, and I was inspired by this idea of there being rites of passage, of there being like these adult women kind of helping, shepherding girls into this phase of life.
Madeleine Shaw 11:51
And so for my presentation, at the Pecha Kucha night, I basically said that I would have a modern red tent. Like, I would have a place and a time that we could bring our daughters and just have this thing that I wanted when I was a kid, and I talked about Margaret and I talked about powder rooms, actually, which is kind of an interesting use of space, right? They kind of used to be a female coded space back in the day. Anyways, and so I was just musing about like where are the female coded spaces and where are the rituals and why don鈥檛 we do that anymore? And anyways, after that night, to me now if anybody out there has any ideas that they鈥檙e kinda sitting on and they鈥檙e not really sure, like just go and tell someone 鈥� like just say it out loud, seriously, because it makes a difference! And one thing led to another, and I met an event planner who was there later and somebody else who offered to fund it, and you know, there鈥檚 something about the idea that resonated for people.
Madeleine Shaw 12:48
And so on April 28, 2014, we had the first one in Vancouver and 250 girls came, and I was like, 鈥淲ow, this is very interesting!鈥� Like clearly this has struck a chord emotionally, more for the parents of the girls. Like the girls themselves they just 鈥� it is true, that girls just wanna have fun 鈥� like they just wanna dance and they wanna play with each other and they wanna do stuff. But really, the day is sorta about that, like it鈥檚 about giving them the opportunity to be themselves and they鈥檙e not being assessed and they鈥檙e not being judged, but we just take them through a whole bunch of experiences and stories 鈥� G-Day is very story-based, there鈥檚 nothing prescriptive about it in anyway 鈥� and it was very successful, actually, and what was interesting to me at the end of it was that so many parents came to us afterwards and said, 鈥淲ell we want to be part of this too!鈥� And it was like oh, of course they do! Because they never had this, and this is an opportunity to witness their daughters, but also to bond as adult-caregivers who are raising these girls. So we started iterating from there and we had the second G-Day, just even six months later at the Chan Centre at UBC, and we invited parents 鈥� we鈥檝e always had parents, we鈥檝e called them champions 鈥� at every G-Day since then. And then it just kinda spread. Somebody reached out to me from Toronto, she鈥檚 this amazing leader there and she wanted to do it, and I said sure, why not? Why not? Why wouldn鈥檛 we?
Melissa Roach 14:15
That鈥檚 incredible.
Madeleine Shaw 14:16
Yeah, so it鈥檚 kinda gone on and on, and today it鈥檚 a registered charity, and we 鈥榲e got an event. Our next one in Vancouver 鈥� well actually, it鈥檚 in Burnaby 鈥� is on April the 29th, that鈥檚 Monday the April 29th, and that鈥檚 a Pro-D day in Vancouver, Burnaby, and I believe Surrey School District as well, and we鈥檙e gonna be putting tickets on sale hopefully at the end of this week, maybe next week, I don鈥檛 know.
Melissa Roach 14:41
Fantastic.
Maria Cecilia Saba 14:42
And I was wondering, what does a regular day at G-Day look like? Like, what do the kids interact with mentors? And I know that it鈥檚 very story-based...yeah.
Madeleine Shaw 14:57
Yeah, that鈥檚 a good question. So when we talk about rites of passage 鈥� which is to say these kinds of special events where this kind of intentional focus on one group and their transition 鈥� historically there are three parts to rites of passage. They don鈥檛 all always look like this, but there鈥檚 sort of enough of a common pattern of, where the beginning you sort of gather as the larger group, or we think of it like a village, like a proverbial village it takes to raise a child, that鈥檚 to say the adults and the girls together, and we are in a crowd of say 200 people, which is typically you get 200-300 people who come to G-day, we gather them in smaller groups, like groups of 10 so you don鈥檛 feel like you鈥檙e just in a sea of 200 people, like you鈥檙e in a smaller community that you have. We have facilitated conversations that occur, so somebody is not just listening to someone at the front of the room, like you鈥檙e actually having a conversation with the people you鈥檙e sitting with, and the idea is to build trust in an intergenerational kind of sense, so that even if you鈥檙e a girl and you don鈥檛 know the adult sitting next to you, you鈥檙e gonna have a conversation about something meaningful. So often the adults will share things that they wish they had known when they were that age, and the girls talk about something that scares them or a challenge that they鈥檙e having, and anyways, there鈥檚 just this kind of cool conversation that helps you get to know people that you didn鈥檛 maybe know before. Like you might come with your friend or your parent, but it鈥檚 鈥�- the idea is that we鈥檙e building this sense of a container of trust that is beyond the family unit.
Madeleine Shaw 16:37
And so we鈥檙e together, and maybe there鈥檚 some music, maybe there鈥檚 some singing, and discussion and just sort of trying to create this sort of connection and occasion, and then after that we separate the two groups. So that鈥檚, again, is a classic thing in rites of passage that there is a sense of either separation or challenge that occurs in the middle, so this is the part where you鈥檙e literally becoming or figuratively becoming a different person. So you鈥檙e separated from the group, you're not with your parents anymore, and so the girls are together. And the idea with that is to connect the girls to one another and create a sense of sisterhood and bonding amongst them, and that鈥檚 why we want their ages to be really similar, too, because they can really feel like this girl鈥檚 going through what I鈥檓 going through, and we might look different, we might be from different places, but it really is about the age and really trying to isolate that. And so we, at that point we take them through 鈥� they really like moving, so we鈥檝e done like martial arts and self defense and yoga and different stuff like that 鈥� so they鈥檙e just like literally being together in a good way.
Madeleine Shaw 17:42
We have people come in and tell them stories, typically around resilience and overcoming adversity, because they鈥檙e all gonna need to do that. But the point is, it鈥檚 not like 鈥榯hese are five steps to overcoming adversity鈥�, it鈥檚 like, this is the story of one person, and some really amazing 鈥� , Provincial Minister of Education has been to G Day 鈥� and basically tells the girls what life was like for her at that age, at their age, as opposed to 鈥業鈥檓 this really big, important, elected official and this is my job鈥�, it鈥檚 like, what happened to her? What was like for her as an Indigenous youth growing up in the Lower Mainland? And I think she went to like six different high schools in five years! And you know, super challenging in her family and all these things, and so sharing it with the girls in a really, deeply personal way. So those are the types of things that we do with the girls.
Madeleine Shaw 18:35
Sometimes there鈥檚 like a creative activity, and then, of course, there鈥檚 this coming back together, right? So at the end, there鈥檚 this third part 鈥� meanwhile the parents have been off, their trajectory is a little more pragmatic. Like we鈥檙e teaching them, they usually hear from parenting experts about ways to support girls at this age. So whether that鈥檚 around things like media literacy or dealing with social media or communications, relationships, leadership, yeah, just a million things. Like it鈥檚 more skill-based, so it鈥檚 the kind of things that a parent would want to know to help support their kid, but we also take the parents on kind of regressive meditation where they do an exercise where they go and re-meet their inner girl, which is really emotional and awesome. And then the parents prepare like a ceremony for the girls with supported in doing that by a celebrant, so somebody who鈥檚 an expert in rites of passage and just kind of like 鈥榟ow do you actually do that part of stuff?鈥� And we鈥檝e used a lot of different, kind of different formula or expressions for this closing reunion piece, and it usually involves singing and some form of like a physical transition, so you literally are going from one place to another and being watched or kind of welcomed as you do that. So you might have started the day symbolically as a child but you鈥檙e finishing as an adolescent taking your first steps towards adulthood and being recognized and singing for doing that and celebrated for doing that. So that happens, and then we have a dance party (laughs) which is really fun, and then we eat 鈥� we usually eat some form of sugar 鈥� I think Cartems Donuts are sponsoring something this year. We鈥檝e had Earnest Ice Cream and just a number of, just, we have a treat at the end, and that鈥檚 basically the day, so it鈥檚 fun.
Melissa Roach 20:31
Yeah, I love how the day is structured so that it mirrors that journey. That鈥檚 very cool.
Madeleine Shaw 20:37
Yeah, well it鈥檚 ancient right? Like and there is a real emotional arc that is important and yeah, that expresses this idea of transition that you are literally moving from the person you showed up as in the morning is not the same at the end of the day.
Melissa Roach 20:54
Yeah, one thing I was interested in when I was reading up was that sense of the community and village. One thing I read was how to lift up your own children but also other children. So 鈥� and then you mentioned the more skills-based training that the parents receive 鈥� so my questions is about how does, how do the values and principles that both caregivers and parents and girls learn carry forward outside of G Day?
Madeleine Shaw 21:24
Yeah, that鈥檚 a great question. How I think about that is that there鈥檚 this idea of an emotional imprint that鈥檚 made. So the types of feelings that we鈥檙e sort of trying to generate at G Day have to do with trust and a sense of belonging, what our G Day Victoria leaders called it a 鈥榯angible experience of mattering.鈥� So you sort of walk out feeling just like more people have your back and see you and care about you, whether you鈥檙e related to them or not, whether you actually met them or not, because the experience of sitting down with people who were previously strangers 鈥� like, let鈥檚 say an adult tells you a story about this challenge that they overcame and what life was like when they were your age 鈥� it鈥檚 like 鈥榶eah, I guess everybody was my age once鈥� and 鈥榯hey had challenges to overcome and they had this weird thing that鈥檚 happening to me right now, or my life is changing and my body is changing.鈥� So it just creates empathy, which is super important, and so just a heightened sense of trust and empathy are the really, really big ones, and this sort of sense that you鈥檙e not alone, that you鈥檙e not the only person this is happening to. And which again speaks to this sort of concentrating at that age, so you really feel like the kid next to you is also having some struggles or also has some questions and whatever, and I would say those two things.
Madeleine Shaw 22:45
And also just joy, like the girls they honestly just wanna have fun and they wanna dance and they wanna do cartwheels and stuff, and just giving them the space to be themselves and for them to enjoy each other鈥檚 company, because it鈥檚 sort of like a big sleepover, basically. So just that energy alone is like, that is not just frivolous, that鈥檚 not a meaningless waste of time. That actually creates this emotional imprint in their minds of that feeling of safety and connectedness and belonging that then, for the rest of their lives, they will seek. Like, it kinda gives them a barometer, if you will, which helps them understand if they鈥檙e in a situation that doesn鈥檛 feel like that, or how to find situations that do feel like that, 鈥榗ause they might not have felt seen or heard in a community context like that ever before in their lives if they鈥檙e not part of some form of faith tradition or something or cultural tradition that has given them that experience. They鈥檙e growing up in an urban environment where they may not even know their neighbours, you know? So their world is actually pretty small, so if they can be in a space where it鈥檚 like 鈥榳ow, 250 people came here today just because of me? Because of this?鈥� like, wow! It鈥檚 a unique feeling.
Madeleine Shaw 23:58
And so, and the way their minds are developing at that particular age, they鈥檙e very susceptible to these emotional memories, which then we hope serve as kind of a touchstone for them as they, you know, they鈥檙e heading in to their teenage years in this hypersexualized, turbo-technology culture of social comparison and competition. And so what we鈥檙e really helping to do is like anchor them in this sense of 鈥榩eople have seen my soul and my truest self, and they value me for that reason.鈥� And so, when other stuff comes down the pipe that is maybe suggesting that they matter for other reasons that aren鈥檛 true and aren鈥檛 meaningful, they already know the truth of why they matter and they can feel it literally in their bones.
Melissa Roach 24:39
Yes, that鈥檚 so important to feel set up and feel prepared for those things. One thing that we were talking about before, you mentioned something about work life balance, and I don鈥檛 know if you鈥檙e feeling like you want to talk about going into adulthood in that way, kind of extending beyond the teenage years and how you carry that with you as a woman in an office or out in the community doing what you do.
Madeleine Shaw 25:10
Yeah totally. Well, I mean really, so many life experiences change us. But for me, becoming a mother was huge. So I had my daughter when I was 35 鈥� no, 37 鈥� and at that point my business partner Suzanne already had a child who was about 2, and then she would go on to have another one. So this was Lunapads, circa 2005, and maybe half a dozen people working there. And here we are having babies, and at the time there were no maternity leave benefits for business owners and you know, there was then as today, just absurdly limited choices when it comes to childcare and the availability of childcare 鈥� which is another topic which I鈥檇 be happy to get into. Anyways, so we brought our kids to work with us, we literally brought our babies to work with us. And partly because we didn鈥檛 have a choice, but partly because we wanted to and we could, so again it was one of those radical experiences where you鈥檙e not really sure what you鈥檙e getting into, and then you look around and realize nobody does this, you know, and then you wonder why not? Why 鈥� the world is designed to basically separate work and life, and then everybody gets all stressed about work-life balance.
Melissa Roach 26:28
And separate children from adults, too!
Madeleine Shaw 26:31
Totally! Attachment is such a huge issue, right? And anyways, so what happened for me is that that made a huge imprint on me to show me this was possible. And after that, I鈥檇 find myself telling other people about this great business idea that they should do which involved creating a family-friendly workplace. And so I would go, because I was too busy with Lunapads and G-Day and whatever I was doing. But if you wanna start a business, let me tell ya, I got one for ya! (laughs) You gotta pay attention to yourself, who you find yourself telling other people that they should do a certain thing, like a half a dozen times, like really, you need to pull out a mirror and get the picture. And so, it was by the time, it was the end of 2016 when I really gave myself the permission to actually start working on the business plan in my mind for what鈥檚 now called Nestworks. So Nestworks is a registered, non-profit society and we鈥檙e working towards finding a space to create exactly what I described, so it鈥檚 actually not even a family-friendly workplace, we call it a work-friendly family place.
Maria Cecilia Saba 27:37
Amazing!
Melissa Roach 27:38
I like that!
Maria Cecilia Saba 27:39
I love it.
Madeleine Shaw 27:40
Yeah, I like that a lot too. It鈥檚 like really root 鈥� like, if we鈥檙e gonna go there like, let鈥檚 really go there. So yeah, I spent the last 鈥� so that鈥檚 one of the reasons why I retired from Lunapads is because I realized, with Lunapads and G Day, I didn鈥檛 have any more time and kind of mental energy if I was seriously going to do this. And I turned 50 at the end of 2017, yeah, so it was kind of like a 50th birthday gift to myself too, to just go 鈥渙kay, you wanna have another baby? Have another baby!鈥� (laughs) Metaphorically speaking, anyways, and yeah, so I鈥檝e been working on the business plan now for a year and a bit, and have really been enjoying it so much. Just trying to understand what the future of work-life balance can be, and just also understanding how disconnected we are from one another and how hard it is 鈥� like, even from a regulatory perspective, what I鈥檓 trying to do is so kinda out there 鈥� but I鈥檓 not letting that stop me! And in the meantime there are tons of family-friendly coworking spaces opening up around the world and even in Canada and in the United States, so I鈥檓 just seeing what鈥檚 possible here in Vancouver.
Madeleine Shaw 28:56
I鈥檝e gotta really great team working with me, and just trying to 鈥� like, in a way, like, this is my, everything that I鈥檝e sort of learned in the last 25 years as an entrepreneur and the networks that I鈥檝e built up and the social capital that I鈥檝e built up and all those things 鈥� this is sort of a legacy project to see if this is possible. And then my vision is that there actually will be several locations so it wouldn鈥檛 just be one place that kind of solves all the problems, because we have families everywhere, and we have kids everywhere, and we have people who need to work everywhere, and we really need to activate the economy to be far more inclusive and democratic and not be so rigid in terms of, you know, the way we even think of, you know, women who are mums who work at home. It鈥檚 like, that鈥檚 so trivialized and so...kind of not respected, and I really am interested in re-inventing the whole conversation around not just work-life balance but how we think about work and how we value it, but also teaching children about work!
Madeleine Shaw 29:58
鈥楥ause kids, I think a lot of children believe that work is something that steals their parents from them for 8 or 10 hours a day, and it has this negative grinding, sort of thing like 鈥淥h I had a hard day at work.鈥� And a lot of people do have hard days at work, but how much more joy and attachment and creativity and possibility could there be? Like what if you could have your lunch with your kid every day, and stuff like that? And anyways, that鈥檚 sort of 鈥� it鈥檚 all a bit utopian but there鈥檚 a very real business plan that鈥檚 coming out of this and I鈥檓 hoping to have our first location chosen and under development by the end of 2019 so it鈥檚 very exciting.
Maria Cecilia Saba 30:35
It鈥檚 very exciting, I鈥檓 seeing a bit of a parallel with that moment when you started Lunapads. Like I feel like the workplace is a bit sterile sometimes, you know? Like you鈥檙e not supposed to bring 鈥� we only recently started bringing pets to the workplace, right? And it鈥檚 kinda weird that we started bringing pets to the workplace before bringing kids to the workplace鈥�
Madeleine Shaw 30:56
Don鈥檛 you think? With all due respect! With all due respect to dogs, like come on, why not? Exactly you raise a fantastic point.
Maria Cecilia Saba 31:06
So it鈥檚 probably a very radical idea but it鈥檚 gonna be just a transition into something a bit more organic, you know? Something that feels a bit more close to our bodies, close to homes, more natural, at the end of the day, right?
Madeleine Shaw 31:19
I totally agree, yeah. I think so too. And I think, you know for me, I have all these ideas that might seem kinda 鈥� actually, all the ideas I ever have are really old, if you think about it. So the idea of washing your own menstrual pads, I mean, for goodness鈥� sake! I mean, even sewed their own menstrual pads, you know? Whatever, washed them, sewed them and so on, and so that鈥檚 a very old idea. And rights of passage, of course, they鈥檙e a super old idea. And this idea, I think of children, like this re-imagining of children in the workplace, like if we think of a pre-industrial revolution society, most businesses were home based. You did have one parent weaving and the other parent making horseshoes or whatever they were doing, and children were just there and a part of it! And it was integrated and children were carried on the backs, carried into the fields or whatever 鈥� and it wasn鈥檛 a problem! It just was part of life and it was much more natural, as you say. Yeah, so in a way, like what I鈥檓鈥� some people say 鈥極h, you鈥檙e ahead of your time鈥� and it鈥檚 like 鈥淣o, no, no, no! That鈥檚 not actually true!鈥� I鈥檓 kind of looking back and seeing what practices or wisdom there might have been that might today be an antidote to how siloed and separated and polarized we are. And how we can become more integrated as communities and as families and humanize the workplace and make products that are better for our bodies and the environment. It鈥檚 not rocket science.
Madeleine Shaw 32:52
Like, you know, as I mature, it really is for me 鈥� and I鈥檓 not interested in screens, like I just don鈥檛 enjoy them. I don鈥檛 enjoy apps and I don鈥檛 enjoy anything really online or social media, and to me it鈥檚 all about the lived experience and what it feels like to be in community and in relationship with people and the types of things that can really only occur when we鈥檙e actually physically together and connected to one another in really deep and honest ways, and then I think some really cool things happen.
Melissa Roach 33:24
That is such a lovely thought, I think, to end on. If there鈥檚 anything else you鈥檇 like to share or if you have something going on that you want people to know about?
Madeleine Shaw 33:34
Yeah, I鈥檇 love to, thank you! So the next G-Day, as I mentioned, is on April 29th. It鈥檚 taking place at the Nikkei Centre in Burnaby, and tickets will be on sale 鈥� you can check is our website, our URL, and we鈥檒l have tickets launching any day now. The other thing that we鈥檙e doing which is really exciting is having a fundraiser for G-Day, and that鈥檚 gonna be on Saturday, May the 11th. And what we鈥檙e doing for that is having an 鈥榰n-gala鈥� as opposed to a gala. And we鈥檙e getting together at my friend Denise鈥檚 鈥� she has this wonderful co-working space called 鈥� and we鈥檙e gonna get together, and actually smash plates against a concrete wall for fun. So the idea is that you can metaphorically 鈥榳hat would you like to smash?鈥� Like would you like to smash say 鈥� I don鈥檛 know, what would you like to smash?
Melissa Roach 34:25
Um, child care fees! Smash 鈥榚m!
Madeleine Shaw 34:26
Child care fees, okay great, great! Maria, what about you? What would you like to smash?
Maria Cecilia Saba 34:31
I think I would like to smash the fact that we cannot bring families and kids to the workplace.
Madeleine Shaw 34:36
Excellent, that鈥檚 a great idea! And you know, some people might wanna smash the patriarchy 鈥�
Maria Cecilia Saba 34:41
The patriarchy, let鈥檚 go with that!
Madeleine Shaw 34:42
...Or gender stereotypes or their ex or鈥 don鈥檛 know! Anyways you can write it on a plate and it鈥檚 all for a good cause, and smash it against a wall. And we鈥檒l provide the safety glasses and you can wear whatever you want, and otherwise it鈥檒l just be kind of a party with a DJ and you know, drinks and things. But I was inspired by an event I heard about in Los Angeles that was like this, and I was like 鈥淥h my god, I want to do that so badly!鈥� as just this creative way of expressing 鈥� like in a healthy way, like it鈥檚 therapeutic 鈥� the rage and the anger and the frustration that I think we all feel sometimes in a celebratory kinda way and kind of outing it, right, instead of getting really mad in the car when you鈥檙e driving or whatever. You鈥檙e actually letting it out and people are celebrating it with you. So it鈥檚 called 鈥溾�� and that鈥檚 gonna be, tickets, again, are not on sale yet but you can keep checking G-Day鈥檚 social or the G-Day website, and that鈥檒l be on Saturday, May 11th, and I think that鈥檒l be a lot of fun. And then we鈥檒l have more G-Days coming later in the year in Victoria and Toronto, and just sign up to our newsletter!
Melissa Roach 35:51
Thanks Madeleine!
[theme music]
Maria Cecilia Saba 35:56
Thanks for listening to this week鈥檚 episode of Below the Radar. Thank you Madeleine for coming on our show. Thanks to my fellow producers, Melissa Roach and Jamie-Leigh Gonzales, and thank you Davis Steele for our theme music. Tune in next time. Bye!
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